i'll say this about tech:
all the way back to the kenny anderson days, they played up and down the their competition. their team is always a little bit better than people think. they'll be beat duke or north carolina at least once this year, flirt with the top 20 for a little while, and the lose back to back games against prairie view and emory university. by the end of the season, they'll be a little better than .500, be on the bubble for the tourney, an whine about playing a tough ACC schedule
it's like clockwork. so, even if IU looked bad i wasn't surprised that tech almost won.

It's pretty interesting to watch the ACC/Big Ten matchup and see how the conferences play different styles of basketball. IU might be the most athletic team in the Big 10, but against Tech they looked like a middle school team facing the HS varsity. Tech forced 17 turnovers last night, 8 by Gordon, and I think that count was low. They were all over the place.

The interesting thing I kept hearing last night was about how Tech was playing without a point guard. Like....they don't even have a good enough one to start so it's like their SF plays the point. Kind of weird.

Hewitt (tech coach) had a good plan to try to run IU off the floor because of its lack of depth and it nearly worked. I still don't think Tech is that good of a team, overall, but they were an extremely tough matchup for a young, inexperienced IU team.

It is true that Tech played strong defense last night. However, I would argue that many of the Gordon TOs were not forced by Ga. Tech, but by Gordon himself. I wonder if these TOs are poor decisions by Gordon, or teammates that are not at his level to accept a unique pass? Whenever you have a prolific player/passer like Bob Cousy or Magic Johnson, these types of TOs can happen.

Gordon just plain doesn't know how to pass the ball very well. I would have to say that is from not having to do it very often in the past. I guess if there is one good thing to say about last night it is that IU can get to the basket if needing to get some big points or get to the FT line. Gordon and Ellis did it consistently in the 2nd half. But in saying that, their offense was way too individualistic last night. They cannot continue to play that way and win long term. I believe the stat line was 10 assists and 17 TO's. What we thought would be an inside-out type offense has turned into a slashing offense. DJ needs to get at least 12 shots a game in my opinion if for only to balance things out a bit. I'm hoping that the 6 new players is the problem with the defense.

Forgot....props to DJ for stepping up his rebounding as Jack had mentioned. I'm wondering if there will be any backlash towards Sampson from the fan base for recruiting a kid like Crawford who for some reason has been suspended. The point being that it looks like he (Crawford) could be a problem and/or bad decision maker.

I really sat down and thought about the passing issues with Gordon last night. He would drive the lane and then fire a pass right over the head of the big men....is that Gordon's fault or the big men? Well....I hate to use a hockey reference here, but look at Wayne Gretzky. Not only was he the greatest scorer, but he was probably also the greatest passer because of his ability to set up his teammates and give them good passes. Maybe Gordon is getting into position to set up his guys, but he's just not giving them a good pass right now. I hope in time he'll realize this and figure something out. I mean...can't he just lob it at the rim and let D.J./Ellis get it?

I agree with you Jack. The team is a bit over hyped right now.

The defense...pissed me off...for lack of a better term. I quickly grew tired of watching the soft zone that Basset and Gordon were playing on the top and the poor effort in their man-to-man defense. No wonder Sampson kicked them out of practice on Sunday.

I'll say this too. Gordon looks pretty selfish right now. At least 4 times he had someone open for a cut to the basket and he just kept dribbling or trying to create his own shot. When he threw away pass after pass after pass, he would throw his hands up and give a look of disgust at whoever he skyrocketed the ball over, then pout back down the court. He needs to mature mentally, because he has the physical part down.

I don't mind Gordon being selfish and taking it to the rim. We were all over Bracey Wright for hanging out around the 3 pt. line and not driving to the basket. Gordon is getting fouled, and more times than not something good happens....but, you are right, he needs to get his teammates involved more. Especially D.J. (could I say that any more?). I think that IU relies on Gordon to do a lot of the work offensively with the ball because Bassett isn't the best at setting up teammates. I like Bassett, but he's more of a SG.

the defense was horrible, like you said, especially the zone. I had forgotten about that zone until you said that. Bad stuff.

Being a Virginia fan, I was pleased to see them dismantle Northwestern last night. Granted NU was without their big gun, but he wouldn't have made that much of a difference, IMO. Sean Singletary is a sight to behold, I'll tell ya. I just hope he can stay healthy enough all season.

Here's a Virginia question for you Bruce. One of my buddies writes for a newspaper and he covered Jamil Tucker (Virginia player) through high school. He guaranteed me that Tucker was the real deal. Why isn't he getting any PT?

I guess I should retract a portion of what I said before. After reading a couple articles, Sampson wanted them to go one on one last night. But, I stand by the fact that type of offense will not work consistently in the long haul. There is quite a bit of work to do on both ends for this team. Sat. night will be a tough test. Being in southern Illinois over the weekend for my cousin's wedding allowed me to see that Saluki fans think they are the greatest team in the nation. I refrained from talking to much smack. Good thing too after IU laid an egg on Sat. against Xavier.

You can mark that down as being the first time I've ever heard a coach tell his players to play one on one. Still, the other players need to move around and make cuts.

Hey Jack, just stumbled on this blog, and I dig it. Both Cubs AND Indiana material?! I’ll be back often.

As for Gordon, I don’t think he’s a selfish player at all. In fact, I think most of his turnovers last night (minus the palming) was from him making too much of an effort to involve the big men. When he gets in the lane he needs to shoot the ball, he’s too good at finishing and from the line NOT too. I’ve seen him make several solid entry passes and some really nice looks from the perimeter, so I think his passing will be fine as long as he stays away from forcing things in the lane.

He does tend to pout a bit, but I think I can live w/ an 18 yr. old doing that as long as it’s not out of hand, and he’s not doing it when he’s 21. (Of course, Gordon’ll be pouting in some NBA city by then.)

Um... oops?

Thanks for stopping by BCurt10, we're happy to have you.

Maybe the speed of the game last night caused some of those miscues. The ESPN announcers did say that it seemed he was playing a little quicker than he normally does because he normally is so smooth out there.

I took care of the 'oops', don't worry about it.

Jack, part of it could be that Tucker still sees himself as a perimeter player, instead of the inside threat Leitao wants him to be. Also, Leitao has pretty much been mixing and matching with the bench this year. With Saroye and Tat rehabbing from surgery, he's been forced to use different sets depending on the opponent and score. After Syracuse, they have few "easy" games(Longwood being one of them, incidentally), so he might see some more time.

Ah...in HS Tucker played on the perimeter a lot and my friend remarked how Tucker loved the 3-ball. So, I can see where the problem would come from. I've only seen him play twice, but I try to keep an eye on all the players from 'The Region' during the season. Hopefully he'll figure it out.

There is no such thing as involving your post players too much. That leads to fouls on the other team or points in the paint.

Did someone imply that you CAN involve your post players too much?

BCurt stated:

"As for Gordon, I don’t think he’s a selfish player at all. In fact, I think most of his turnovers last night (minus the palming) was from him making too much of an effort to involve the big men."

If Gordon can't incorporate his big men without turning it over, then he isn't going to be nearly as effective as he needs to be.

Ah...I think he just meant Gordon was trying too hard. I could be wrong though.

What I was talking about was that many of EJ’s turnovers on Tuesday were on drives to the basket or fast-break opportunities where instead of going to the rack he tried to make a difficult pass to a big man. In those situations Gordon likely has a BETTER chance to draw fouls or score. My point was that he DOES make an effort to involve the big men in a half-court setting, and is pretty good at it. His mistakes Tuesday came from trying to do so in situations where he shouldn’t have.

I haven’t seen him be selfish at all, and I guarantee there hasn’t been 5 shots he’s taken all year that Kelvin Sampson wouldn’t have wanted him to take.

As for "There is no such thing as involving your post players too much."

My memories of the George Leach Era would dispute that.

Leach also had Newton around and they were busy feeding him. Leach was the rebounding and blocking. Those two were great inside.

By great, you mean mediocre, right?

If getting to the championship game is mediocre, then yes.

Leach got like 6 rebounds a game, and for every block he made (maybe 2 or 3 a game) he gave up about 5 offensive rebounds to his man on blocks he MISSED.

How many blocks a game does a guy that plays half the game need to have? 17? 2 or 3 a game is excellent, in any level of basketball. Again, 6 rebounds a game for his minutes was great.

6 points, 6 boards, 2 blocks in 21 minutes a game...

Are you talking about Leach:

College Highlights: Finished collegiate career as the fourth all-time leading shot blocker in Indiana history with 194. Started 60 of 140 career games played. Spent the 1999-00 season at Indiana as a redshirt.

Senior (2003-04): Averaged 9.1 points and 5.5 rebounds in 25.6 minutes a contest. Started all 20 games that he appeared in, missing nine games due to a knee injury. Scored in double figures seven times. Posted season-high 26 points to go with eight rebounds vs. Minnesota. Blocked a season-high seven shots vs. Michigan. Shot a perfect 6-for-6 from the field on his way to 14 points vs. Ohio State in the first round of the Big Ten Tournament. Led team with 11 rebounds in the second round loss to Illinois.

9.1 points and 5.5 boards in 26 minutes a game for a (near) 7-footer doesn't do it for me. Jamarcus Ellis is getting over 8 boards a game this season in 30 minutes of action

Or this George Leach:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/college/men/players/862/

6 points, 6 boards, 2 blocks in 21 minutes a game

Yeah, I looked at that. Calling him mediocre would be giving him credit. I think his #'s for November are the #'s he should have put up his entire career. The rest of the months for that season he was weak.

Ellis is also out rebounding the "big man" on IU right now. DJ White is averaging 6.8 rebounds and Mike White grabbed 6 in 20 minutes in his 20 minutes of play the other night.

I think it is all about coaching and placement in different defenses.

In man to man, Ellis is going to out hustle his man and grab some boards, but he is also quick enough to grab longer rebounds, where as a big man isn't able to.

If a big man has a better offensive game, does that let him off the hook for not rebounding then?

We've had this argument over at YAYSports before:

"I think it is all about coaching and placement in different defenses."

Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman would beg to differ. Leach was weak. If you don't think so, that's cool. You are allowed to think whatever you want.

Ya, but that is comparing apples to oranges. The NBA game is quite different than the college game.

What? rebounding is rebounding is rebounding. Are you telling me that Barkley and Rodman didn't dominate the boards in college like they did in the NBA? Rebounding is hustle, grit, determination and wanting it more than the other guy. That's how guys like Jason Kidd can get 9 boards a game. If you want it, you get it.

My statement about coaching earlier also goes to the offensive side.

Mike Davis' offense was predicated on the long range shot (Wright, Coverdale, Hornsby, Marshall, etc.). The reason Leach didn't score much is because he wasn't built for that offense. He wasn't going to go out to the perimeter and create his own shot. Those guys clearly weren't going to make an effort to send the ball down low. That is why Newton thrived and Leach didn't. Newtown could step out and take that shot or create if he wanted.

The rebounding part of it is simple. When you have four guys on the perimeter chucking threes and one guy to get the boards, then he isnt going to have a ton opportunities. It's simple math. 1 against 4, the 4 is going to win 99% of the time. Plus, long shots create long rebound opportunities, which is why Newton averaged 8 boards a game. He could get after longer rebounds because of his mobility for a big man. Leach was/is a post player in the truest sense.

Comparing Leach to Barkley and Rodman is not even close. Those guys were the stars of their teams in college and mostly in the NBA. Leach played with "stars" like Jeffries, Wright, and Newton. He wasn't the focal point of the offense. He did play great defense as his being 4th on the IU blocks list will tell you. He altered even more shots that didn't get marked down. If he averaged 15 points and 6 boards, then this wouldn't be a discussion. Since he averaged 9 and 6, he is weak? Guess DJ White is barely better than him then. He is only averaging 13 points and 7 boards.

Ok, let me take this point by point:

1. If Leach wasn't built for that offense...why was he on the floor? To rebound and block shots. He did one of those well, when he was in the game.

2. "The rebounding part of it is simple. When you have four guys on the perimeter chucking threes and one guy to get the boards, then he isnt going to have a ton opportunities. It's simple math. 1 against 4, the 4 is going to win 99% of the time."

So the guys guarding the perimeter players just hung around the bucket waiting for rebounds no. Come on, that doesn't even make sense. If you are going to make that argument you should say that it was Leach against his defender, one on one, best man wins. Leach usually lost. As for the long rebounds because of the shots from the perimeter...yes, that is correct. BUT, shouldn't Leach have prepared for that himself?

Let me get this straight. The offense wasn't to get the ball to the guy in the post, the shots were coming off far from the post and this dude just sat in the post? You would think he'd adapt to find a way to be successful and useful in the offense, wouldn't you?

DJ White is underachieving so far in his IU career, that is correct. Double doubles are damn close to it is what I expect. I think you are using the term 'stars' very loosely there, too. If he averaged 6 points and 11 rebounds...this wouldn't be an issue. As you've said, he wasn't out there to score.. then why was he out there? To rebound and block shots. That was his job and he obviously wasn't getting it done enough if he was only playing 21 minutes a game. Come on, you make Leach out to be a world beater when in reality he was a little more than Sean Kline...a role player who had a few decent games.

I'd like to add that blocked shots are NOT what makes you a "great defender." A guy that tries to block every shot within 15 ft of him - which is what Leach did in EVERY game - leaves his man wide open for easy dump downs and offensive rebounds. That's part of why he was a below average rebounder for his size.

A guy like that also commits a lot of fouls, which is part of why he rarely played more than 20 minutes.

George also struggled mightily at on-the-ball defense - just as DJ does now.

My buddy roomed with George, and he's a really nice guy. Unfortunately, that makes him pretty much just like Mike Davis - nice guy, who was horrible at what he was doing for Indiana Basketball.

actually my original statement was:

Those two were great inside.

Meaning Newton and Leach.

I've never said he was a world beater. And yes, when you have four guys sitting on the perimeter shooting threes, their defenders have an easier time guarding them and getting rebounds. When you have one guy going against his man, plus 4 others, it makes it a little more difficult. He might not have been a star, but he was an important part of that championship run.

I tell you what, anyone that wants to come play some ball and see how hard it is when you are the only person under the basket, then you are more than welcome to come out. I'm officially throwing that challenge out there!

ok, new question for you

what do you think of this new Bob Knight stuff?

Leach was going against one man to get these rebounds. If he wanted the boards, he would have gotten them. Physically, he had more to work with than most of his opponents because of his height and wing span. What kept him from getting those boards? His opponents would beat him to it....because they wanted it more. Plus, we are just talking about offensive boards, how was he on the defensive end? Just as mediocre, if that. GM...I played college basketball, I know how it works. I've been through every box-out/rebounding drill imaginable. I've been the lone guy standing under the bucket tipping the ball off the board to my teammates and I've been the guy who forgot to box out the little guy that sneaks in amongst the trees to steal the board away. This is nothing new, it's not a new strategy. This is such an old argument that I'm not even sure why we are having it.

Those two were not 'great' inside. They were average or maybe even good...maybe. Never did I say, "Man, I'm really happy we have those two guys." Newton was good, Leach wasn't. There have been a lot of players who were close to seven feet tall who didn't fulfill their potential and Leach was one of them.

Why do you think Jeff Foster gets so many rebounds? Because he would kill to get that damn ball. Why do you think Eddy Curry gets so few rebounds? Because he could really care less....Why does Hansbrough do so well to get boards? Because he'd beat you senseless to get the ball. Why do so many big men in college struggle to get boards? Because they are more worried about other things. Christ, it's not rocket science.

As for Bobby Knight...by now we should all just expect him to shoot a couple of people every few years.

Wait - did we just get challenged to a game of 21 for George Leach's honor?

Can I send Moye in my place?

semantics... I will show you some antics.